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Winter Build started

23K views 58 replies 17 participants last post by  gritty 
#1 · (Edited)
Dropped off the bike with the builder and starting the build process. Not able to go as wild as I was hoping (was hoping for a 200+ RWHP), but should bring the bike up to maybe just bit faster than I have ridden. Coming from a legit 160 rwhp GSXR to what I am betting is about 130 RWHP bike was just to much drop for me. Hoping to get this bike up to 170 RWHP on pump gas.

So the build:

Replace the CAMs (looking at some GSXR K5-K6 adjustable cams or possibly the ones from PTR in Austraila)
Replacing the valves and springs to handle more power
Mill the head and thinner head gasket to bring compression up (still leaving it safe for 93 pump gas) Current GSXS 12.5:1 GSXR 2005 which our motor came from 12:9:1. Probably shooting for just over 13.5:1
Port and Polish the heads.
Re-spring forks and massage the valving
Re-spring the shock and tweak the stock valving
ECU Flash to remove the Secondary butterfly restrictions, Timing, engine brake, and still looking at what else can be done. (already remove PAIR and Exhaust valve)

Already done
M4 full exhaust
PAIR mod
Bazzaz TC unit for fuel map customizing (used the auto Tune to update the bike from stock after the exhaust)
Installed but haven't tested Brembo front RC 19 master cylinder (Stock unit was crap 3/4" of lever travel before pressure is applied to the pads)
Installed but haven't tested Spiegler Front and rear lines. (Spiegler is making a kit for the non ABS from my lines, as I live 40 minutes from their shop)
Installed but haven't ridden yet LSL Drag bar from Spiegler. With my short upper body my arm angle to the bars was pretty much horizontal so I had no forward angle to help absorb throttle changes with my body. Lowering the bars a couple inches will make it much better for me. And looking at the competitors sure seemed their bars were already at that level I want.

Hopefully will get a baseline dyno run, but not sure if the builder will get access to a dyno before he starts the tear down.

Will update this thread as I get more information on details of the motor work.
 
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#12 · (Edited)
Most rwhp dyno figures I've seen for the GSXS have been 140hp+.
The "donor" bike K5/K6 GSXR I believe was about 15HP more - stock.
But you will feel the rush the GSXR have at the top end of course, even though it is not *that* much more powerful than the GSXS.
Full faring/less drag do make a difference @ 100mph++.

Your build sounds very interesting.

Would be nice to see before/after dyno figures.
 
#13 ·
So the build is done, was not able to get a pre-dyno run done, but I did have the final ECU and Dyno mapping done on the same Dyno as my 2009 GSXR 1000 race bike.

What ended up being done:

Heads were port & polished.
Head was milled down .010" to increase compression .5 - 1.0 (builder didn't measure kind of irked about that).
SERDI valve job to improve the valve performance The Perfect Serdi Valve Job
Installed a 2005 GSXR Intake cam for increased lift, The stock Exhaust Cam had more lift than the GSXR so it was not touched.
Cams were adjusted for peak Midrange performance.

ECU was re-flashed with custom ignition map and more aggressive on the secondary throttle bodies.

I will post the dyno sheets later, but best run came out to 164 RWHP on regular 93 pump gas at 11k rpm. My 2009 race bike hit 169 rwhp on the same dyno due to the extra 2k RPM.

The runs are dang near identical with very small valleys, but the biggest improvement is the snatchy on off throttle is gone, and also the hesitation around 5k RPM coming out of a corner is gone.

This morning ride in was my first time to really get on it, but still learning the feel as I also put on a Flat Drag bar from LSL, and had the front fork internals massaged. Trying to find some anti vibration foam to spray in the bars as it is pretty buzzy even with the LSL bar ends.

Overall happy with the performance improvements. Next winter I might think about a 520 conversion when the stock drive train is ready for replacement.
Quick shots with the Drag bar, Toby Damper, and the neon orange wrap. The shot from the rear is a better indication of the color.
 

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#14 ·
Cool build! May I ask if you truly notice any performance increase minus the throttle snatch? The reason I ask is because I just gained roughly 25 hp from a ECU flash on my ZX10R and I feel a difference in mid range but I would be lying if I said I noticed the gain in the top end.

Did I read correctly and you did not get a compression reading?

Definitely sounds like a sleeper bike and I will be anxious to hear updates on how she feels. I thought about doing some serious engine work to my GSXS but decided to just buy a faster bike.

Please let us know if you get a chance to leave some supersports in your rear view!

Love the bike man!
 
#16 ·
I am still feeling it out, I was kind of expecting a bit lighter in the front end, but I think I am comparing to my race bike with shorter wheelbase 20lbs lighter and -1 front +1 rear. So far it sure does pull like a freight train without lifting the front. I am working with how aggressive I can be with the throttle in 1st as so far it has just skipped a bit (even with getting to 100% throttle around 9k rpm. Out of the corner I can feel the difference as it used to be flat in the mid range, but now it start pulling right from the go. I will play some more with it, but could be a very slight hesitation when snapping throttle from closed to 100% (2nd and 3rd gear).

I can definitely feel the gains across the rev range compared to what it was, as it sure felt flat even after the pipe and Bazzaz. That is another thing I need to check to see if my Bazzaz is limiting it.

Yeah I did not get a final reading on the Compression, was hoping to have that info, but it will still run fine on regular 93 octane pump gas.

Here is the Dyno runs I had the shop overlay the best run with my race bike. The 169 is my race bike on pump gas (custom map #1 ) the 174 is my race bike with MR12 (custom Map #2 ) and the 164 is the GSXS.
 

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#18 ·
cam lobe timing

I am still feeling it out, I was kind of expecting a bit lighter in the front end, but I think I am comparing to my race bike with shorter wheelbase 20lbs lighter and -1 front +1 rear. So far it sure does pull like a freight train without lifting the front. I am working with how aggressive I can be with the throttle in 1st as so far it has just skipped a bit (even with getting to 100% throttle around 9k rpm. Out of the corner I can feel the difference as it used to be flat in the mid range, but now it start pulling right from the go. I will play some more with it, but could be a very slight hesitation when snapping throttle from closed to 100% (2nd and 3rd gear).

I can definitely feel the gains across the rev range compared to what it was, as it sure felt flat even after the pipe and Bazzaz. That is another thing I need to check to see if my Bazzaz is limiting it.

Yeah I did not get a final reading on the Compression, was hoping to have that info, but it will still run fine on regular 93 octane pump gas.

Here is the Dyno runs I had the shop overlay the best run with my race bike. The 169 is my race bike on pump gas (custom map #1 ) the 174 is my race bike with MR12 (custom Map #2 ) and the 164 is the GSXS.
hi, ive got 2-3mnths to do some mods while recovering from wrist surgery, im wanting to install a 06 gsxr intake cam, can you let me know what lobe centre timings for the intake and exhaust cams ?
i also carry out porting , and had figured on a clean and match of intake, some more serious work on ex port to run with a D port exhaust extension/ oversize header setup ive seen work wonders.
thanks for your write up, regards caig
 
#21 ·
i will be making a full race exhaust to go with the eng mods, previous exhaust was for max torque thru mirange-topend,
the std ex port is near d shape and is not a complete curve as well as fairly small so lends itself to a d port setup ( i.e floor of port flat), a serious eng developer freind of mine had a nice setup like that on a 3/4midget engine he had developed into an awesome bit of kit, ive never carried out that mod previously but it gives added power/torque if you get it flowing right.
 
#22 ·
i managed to find a seller for a new k5/6 gsxr1000 intake cam, priced @$225us, ended up costing $379nz delivered, plus i found a seller of the thinner head gasket (18thou, vs 30thou stock gsx-s) its costing $100nz del.
just organising some 41mm ex bends to start on the new exhaust, then i can remove the cylinder head for some port / valve work and maybe a head skim, need to cc the combution chamber before i do that so i can determine the effective compression ratio the thinner gasket will give, happy days coming! , just love getting a few more gee gee's organised over winter.
 
#24 ·
i was looking thru the online manual, trying to see if they said cyl head can be removed with eng in frame, couldnt find any mention of it, though i did see they had mtr out for the pics of cyl head removal, other thing im wondering is if there is any info on the change they made to the cr/case ventilation which apparently gives 4hp, might be able to replicate this if i remove whole engine, i found i had to increase the cr/case ventilation on my xr650r once i enlarged the mtr past 670cc.
 
#25 · (Edited)
I looked too, can't find any reference to removing the cylinder head in situ.

I've heard but can't remember why that the crankcase changes are similar to the L2 GSXR, Pentagonal holes between each cylinder, to allow the air under the piston moving down to move more quickly to the next cylinder (going up),thus reducing pumping losses



One possible problem that I have heard about with changing cams is the camshaft position sensor system used on the GSXS - longer duration cams could cause a problem with the inlet pressure sensors being used to calculate cam position




Images are not appearing for some reason, click here if you can't see
 
#26 ·
thanks paul, im going to lift my f/tank today to inspect the possibility of cyl head removal insitu, ill probably end up dropping eng out as im keen to do some tinkering regards the ventilation problem, plus ive had some false neutrals changing into 4th gear, it may need some shim and dog correction to remedy.

only problem model ive read about regard the cam sensor,is on the k7/8 model cams, its apparently 10 degree different to the gsxr cams, if ours is the same then may require a k5/6 sensor as well.
 
#27 ·
just an update on my winter overhaul, ive ordered a few parts now, gsxr1000k5 inlet cam, exhaust valve springs, gsxr750k6 inlet valve springs, this should allow me to raise the rev limit to 12500rpm safely, thin type (18thou vs 30thou) cometic head gasket for increased compression , cometic crankcase gaskets, 41mm od ex bends for headers, 47mm od for secondrys, 60mm od for tailpipe, havent had any luck finding a reasonably priced carbon cannister for the muffler, so that will probably be aluminium, planning on a triple chambered muffler that creates a vortex inside that draws the gases thru the muffler, which ive used before with a tapered exhaust system, the cylinder head will be ported and have the valves and seats recut to performance specs, and the pistons are getting performance coatings to decrease friction, plus i just purchased a pcv , and hope to get an autotune to go with it.
so while ive been waiting for parts, ive rebuilt my xr650r mtr that has been sitting on my bench due to lost focus on the gsx-s, hoping to get some trail riding in this season, which should help with my wrist rehab as long as i dont get too carried away....
 
#28 ·
So after a few months of riding this thing I am still not impressed with gains. I can feel gains, but from going back and forth from the GSXR to the GSXS I am thinking that Suzuki has modified something else internally. I don't know if it is a much heavier crank, or a fly wheel from a Harley but the bike just seems to rev in slow motion.

I will probably ride it like it is through next year (barring anymore Racing crashes) take back to the the shop that did my mapping and see what can be done to get this thing to spool up faster. May do a SuperCrank and bore it out something to help this thing spool up. I can feel the power and torque, but you twist the throttle and just adds the power so slow it feels flat. Going full throttle in 2nd gear from low down it just takes forever to build revs. Once I put some more miles and get some use out of the chain I will do a -1/+1 520 conversion on it, and shorten the wheelbase a bit to try and add some excitement.
 
#30 ·
hi, chris, it wouldnt surprise me if the crank is weighted abit more than the gsxr, ive just about finished my new exhaust system, just finishing up the muffler this week.
starting on the mtr upgrade next, ive got all the engine parts, i will be doing a complete eng disassembly, so i will be able to weigh the crankshaft, im hoping to carry out cylinder vent mod , i have bought a pcv + autotune to get the fuelling sweet, have you had the secondary butterfly's reset during your ecu reflash ?, these will limit the response if they havent.
id still like to know what timings your cams were set at ?
 
#37 ·
hi all, just an update on my winterbuild, despite what manual says , i only got 11.97:1 compression ratio after cc'ing chamber externally, then again after removing cyl head to blank it and measure chamber and piston crown volumes plus adding stock head gasket volume that adds, so by installing thinner option h/gasket (this reduces squish from 40thou, to 28thou) it will raise comp ratio to 12.5:1, this means il need to plane head abit as well probably 10-20thou to get compression up to 12.8:1.
pistons are going away for coating this week, ive found a quality engine balancer to lighten/balance crank locally, still deciding if ill remove the balancer shaft, i dont want extra vibes as it is a roadbike, ive started porting the cyl head after plugging up the pair valve holes,the cylinder venting mod looks 'possible', but will be fairly difficult as i will have to work in a narrow gap between main bearing towers down to a depth of about 2-3inches, die grind out the shape then smooth it up with sand paper, i wont be going into the cylinder bore area as im worried about causing rough edges to the nikasil bore coating by it chipping, ive seen a gsxr cr/case that was an arched shape down to the main brg boss, it has a very thin webb between it and bottom of cyl bore, so dont forsee any strength issue
one problem with planning cyl head and using thin gasket is the camshaft gear will be 30 odd thou closer to the crank, this will probably mean installing adjustable gears to reset timings, as to wear on parts ,crank/ pistons / rings / camshafts seem as new, valves however are dished on faces, intake stem seals have been leaking alot of oil, guides dont appear worn, ive got some vitron stem seals coming to hopefull remedy that , thats all for now
 
#38 · (Edited)
here's a pic of the crankcase vent mod, plus one of exhaust ports, just finishing the inlet ports at present, which ive resized ( for faster velocity) to help build power earlier in rev-range and to reduce volume / pulse timing to aid top end powerband extension.
head will be going in for valve / seat cut plus plane this week, the crank is expected back in two weeks time, when i can reassemble mtr finally !






 
#39 · (Edited)
so ive finished resizing and shaping the inlet ports,went for a 7% reduction to hopefully raise rpm for max power by 1000rpm, and to increase velocity in ports to boost midrange torque.
the crank is finally on its way back, cost $690nz, its had around 460 grams removed ( from 8.480kg crank) via knife edging and has had rods and pistons more finely balanced, so hoping to have the mtr reassembled in a week or so
 
#43 ·
hi ya'll , just a litle update and correction about the gsxr1000k5 inlet camshaft, i had stated lobe center timing was 106 degrees, ( as a drop in item), but its actually 100.5 dgrees, after much research regarding camshaft timing, port size/flow, ive decided to set inlet lobe center at 100 degrees so that its opening at the same timing as the stock cam and staying open 12 degrees later to aid cylinder filling and topend power, im also retaining close to stock exhaust cam timing of 104 degrees to keep overlap duration at 34 degrees, which im hoping will aid retaining midrange torque in conjunction with the compression increase to 12.75:1
ive set up the adjustable cam sprockets and set timing , then checked piston to valve clearences and squish gap, which is .28mm static, .24 with piston rocked in bore, which is "just" on the safe side of minimal, thats due to the thin type head gasket.
i was fairly concerned with running the inlet cam at that timing ( with the thin gskt) as most other builders seemed to be around 106 degrees to aid piston to valve clearence, but all seems good in that regard.
ive checked it every 10 degrees from btdc to 40 degrees after.
so im getting thru my list of mods, just awaiting some parts to arrive, then finally be able to fully reassemble and give it a run....
if the topend seems lacking i can try some alternative cam timings, its abit of hit and miss as the stock gsx ex cam has different timing specs to the gsxr but does have higher lift.
 
#45 · (Edited)
so for some reason its only just tripped my memory that a gsxr750 inlet cam can be installed to go with a gsxr1000k5 inlet cam as the exhaust cam, this gives added mid - topend power on the gsxr1000, i just compared the gsx-s inlet cam specs, they are fairly simular....

gsx-s intake is 8.66mm lift / 235 degree duration at 40 thou lift
gsxr 740 k3 intake 8.6mm lift / 240 degree duration at 40 thou lift
another combination on gsxr site is to use earlier gsxr1000k3 intake on ex side which has even more lift than the gsx-s intake, so now im thinking of utilizing the stock gsx-s intake cam as my exhaust cam to get a little bit more power out of it, now need to sort out some alternate cam lobe center timings to suit this set up.... just love realizing more power is available, i just found some interesting articles on the gsxr750 inlet cam as an exhaust cam, so ive removed the gsx-s exhaust cam and installed the adjustable sprocket onto the gsx-s inlet cam, dialed it in for 106 degree lobe center timing and the gsxr inlet cam to 110 lobe center, gives amazing midrange acceleration according to tim radley-: engine tuner of bsb, world supersport fame, he is an adherent of the epoxy port reshaping, probably one of the worlds foremost in regards to motorcycles, saw a few really interesting articles on it- makes me think i could do abit more work on my inlet ports yet....
 
#46 ·
hi, so ive got a set of new vance & hines s/steel valves as mine were recessed on seat faces, i re-did the epoxy porting of the inlets, to fill the roof of the runner from a couple of inches before the valve guides into the valve bowl area, as per the posts i had seen of tim radleys guide to gsxr1000 inlet porting, then ive sent the cyl head down to a south island engine machinist, to get a better 5 angle valve seat job as i wasnt happy with my local engine shops job, plus they only planed the head 5 thou as they were worried about hitting the edge of the seats, so its also getting the other 5 thou planed as well.
so i will now finally be able to reassemble it over the next week or so, once it gets back....
credit cards are at their limit now too, so i cant carry out any more mods for a while.
ill post some pics of the new ports and valve job once its back, and to report the new compression ratio after i "cc" the chamber prior to assembly.
 
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