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Discussion Starter #1
hi fellow gsx-s users, ive had a black widow full exhaust system on the bike for a week or two now, ive been comparing its performance to the extracter i had previously made for the bike, its still running the the same ecu reflash, which i admit wasnt fueling very well in the lower 1-3500rpm range, its apparrently difficult for the brake dyno tuner to get reliable info in that range., im thinking of an inertia dyno run with this b/widow exhaust to get a base run for comparision, we dont have a lot of dyno tuners for m/c's around my location, a couple in two cities a couple hundred km's away
but ive found a few differences with this b/widow ex system, with its decibel killer in the 300mm carbon muffler the lower 3k rpm responds better to under half throttle, 3-7krpm is very muted in its reponse, i.e a hole in torque curve , 7-11500rpm is strangled, power feels down by approx 10hp in this range, without the d/killer its stronger thruout midrange/topend slightly
the pipe i built used the same size header tubes for 165 ft /sec gas speed, but the b/wid has smaller secondary tubes, with fairly basic collecters which are marginally better than standard, i had also die ground the remains of the tig welding internally on the collecters prior to fitting as these have a negative effect on wave reversions. my next stage will be to remove the b/widow secondary pipes, install a proper set of race collecters and lenghtened secondary pioes to remove the hole in the mid-range power as i had with my pipe. ill put up some pic's for you all to see the differences between aftermarket and race built pipes, i.e they are internal not external as looks dont matter to to gas flow, shape does !
 

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Discussion Starter #3
imagine if they made some sort of valve that changes position based on RPM so you could achieve maximal engine response by controlling exhaust gasses depending where you are on the curve.
ive previously made mufflers that by their design, help the gas flow maintain a constant flow in and out regardless of rpm - that being a "recycling inertia" type muffler, think of a sock being turned inside out and you'll start to get the idea.
they are fairly involved to make but do work very well, they also weigh abit as they have 2 canisters and alot more internal plumbing than a "regular" muffler, ive developed various types of mufflers over the years, the best power gain i acheived was 22% max increase with a huge increase in torque thruout the rev range on a completely tapered exhaust system with a recycling inertia muffler. just about all the race mufflers you see on aftermarket exhausts are just a reduced outlet, back pressure, single baffle tubed design - as basic as it gets, though they are lightweight.
 

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Temp...No doubt you know your stuff. My observation is this. There is a long standing belief among bikers that the only way to a achieve a good running bike is to have no restrictions in the exhaust and have it be as open as possible. If that were true, you would see 0 exhaust pipes on at at least some race engines because they would cause some restriction.

The problem is that these beliefs came into existence before active exhaust management existed.

The relationship of ideal exhaust tube diameter for an engine is linear and depends on desired flow rate per a given RPM.......The result being that a higher flow speed is typically favored at lower RPM (more narrow tube) and less flow speed at high RPM(wide tube).

Ferrari, for example, builds some cars with literally 2 sets of exhaust pipes. At lower RPM, the more narrow pipes are in use and then a "valve" shunts the gases to the wider set at higher RPM/throttle.

By the laws of physics, there is not one exhaust pipe setup for an engine that will be optimal for every part of the power curve....Your rpm/power keep going up and down as you ride and give/cut fuel delivery but your exhaust outlet is always the same.....This is why gsx-r1000 comes with 3 set valves. They are the best attempt to replicate a dynamic tube size.

The truly ideal exhaust would not have one diameter but would always be constricting or dilating. It would be made of something like the Terminator in T2.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
hi fellow gsx-s users, ive had a black widow full exhaust system on the bike for a week or two now, ive been comparing its performance to the extracter i had previously made for the bike, its still running the the same ecu reflash, which i admit wasnt fueling very well in the lower 1-3500rpm range, its apparrently difficult for the brake dyno tuner to get reliable info in that range., im thinking of an inertia dyno run with this b/widow exhaust to get a base run for comparision, we dont have a lot of dyno tuners for m/c's around my location, a couple in two cities a couple hundred km's away
but ive found a few differences with this b/widow ex system, with its decibel killer in the 300mm carbon muffler the lower 3k rpm responds better to under half throttle, 3-7krpm is very muted in its reponse, i.e a hole in torque curve , 7-11500rpm is strangled, power feels down by approx 10hp in this range, without the d/killer its stronger thruout midrange/topend slightly
the pipe i built used the same size header tubes for 165 ft /sec gas speed, but the b/wid has smaller secondary tubes, with fairly basic collecters which are marginally better than standard, i had also die ground the remains of the tig welding internally on the collecters prior to fitting as these have a negative effect on wave reversions. my next stage will be to remove the b/widow secondary pipes, install a proper set of race collecters and lenghtened secondary pioes to remove the hole in the mid-range power as i had with my pipe. ill put up some pic's for you all to see the differences between aftermarket and race built pipes, i.e they are internal not external as looks dont matter to to gas flow, shape does !
Heres some reference pics so you can see the different length dimensions
the black widow ex basicly doesnt have secondary pipes, which a 4-2-1 traditionally have, i have repaired the exhaust i built that was damaged, ive reinstalled it for back - back impressions. the biggest performance difference is the midrange torque/power, which is fairly flat on the b/widow pipe, is in effect a bulge with my pipe, this is utilizing the same carbon 300mm b/widow muffler , which is internally mted on my pipe as the tail pipe is 2 sizes larger @53mm id , vs 53mm od on blac widow.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Temp...No doubt you know your stuff. My observation is this. There is a long standing belief among bikers that the only way to a achieve a good running bike is to have no restrictions in the exhaust and have it be as open as possible. If that were true, you would see 0 exhaust pipes on at at least some race engines because they would cause some restriction.

The problem is that these beliefs came into existence before active exhaust management existed.

The relationship of ideal exhaust tube diameter for an engine is linear and depends on desired flow rate per a given RPM.......The result being that a higher flow speed is typically favored at lower RPM (more narrow tube) and less flow speed at high RPM(wide tube).

Ferrari, for example, builds some cars with literally 2 sets of exhaust pipes. At lower RPM, the more narrow pipes are in use and then a "valve" shunts the gases to the wider set at higher RPM/throttle.

By the laws of physics, there is not one exhaust pipe setup for an engine that will be optimal for every part of the power curve....Your rpm/power keep going up and down as you ride and give/cut fuel delivery but your exhaust outlet is always the same.....This is why gsx-r1000 comes with 3 set valves. They are the best attempt to replicate a dynamic tube size.

The truly ideal exhaust would not have one diameter but would always be constricting or dilating. It would be made of something like the Terminator in T2.
yes you are correct , ideally the pipe size and length would vary thruout the revrange, but i havent found a practical way to do this on a m/cycle due to contrictions for space/ weight., what i have previously made that does a very simular effect is convergent tapered exhaust pipes, the problem is the tapering needs to match the engines flow rates, the sizing is determined by the amount of heat/ flow produced, so largest by port, smaller the further away from port, and the entire ehaust system requires to be tapered , it does amazing things to the powerband and most of all to the torque curve when you get it right though,.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
heres some pics of the modded black widow pipe, which has transformed it into a torque monster, previously the power curve was fairly good at the bottom with the decibel killer in place, seemed abit less with it out, in the midrange though it was decidedly lacking, had a defined stage where the topend power took over and seemed strangled tne nearer to the redline you got., but without the deci killer the midrange was slightly more responsive and the top end power was seemingly better than the stock exhaust.
now with the secondary pipes lengthened to where i have calculated is the correct volume , the bottom end is even better than b4 with the modded deci killer in place, the midrange is really bulging with torque, which leads into a much improved topend over stock.
it bewilders me why black widow dont take advantage of the extra power and torque available with this style of pipe arrangement....

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now with the secondary pipes lengthened to where i have calculated is the correct volume , the bottom end is even better than b4 with the modded deci killer in place, the midrange is really bulging with torque, which leads into a much improved topend over stock.
it bewilders me why black widow dont take advantage of the extra power and torque available with this style of pipe arrangement....

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Brilliant piece of work!

Would this work with the stock manifold. I'd have to pay loads of import tax to import a new manifold but could get my current manifold modified cheaply and easily. Would you need to delete the crossover pipes or leave them in place?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Brilliant piece of work!

Would this work with the stock manifold. I'd have to pay loads of import tax to import a new manifold but could get my current manifold modified cheaply and easily. Would you need to delete the crossover pipes or leave them in place?
i have noted that the stock header pipe is smaller than the port, those in between pipes have horrible internal obstacles to the ex flow, but yes i think you can gain a much improved midrange by giving this type of mod to the stock pipe, however the std manifold is a mass produced item with many descrepencies to the continuios flow of the ex gases
the std type collecters are very basic folded sheet vs formed bend type on the b/w and fully formed type on my ex, all these deficiencies do degrade the extra you can get, but i still think it would be worth it.
 

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i have noted that the stock header pipe is smaller than the port, those in between pipes have horrible internal obstacles to the ex flow, but yes i think you can gain a much improved midrange by giving this type of mod to the stock pipe, however the std manifold is a mass produced item with many descrepencies to the continuios flow of the ex gases
the std type collecters are very basic folded sheet vs formed bend type on the b/w and fully formed type on my ex, all these deficiencies do degrade the extra you can get, but i still think it would be worth it.
Thanks, I will try it :)
 

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i have noted that the stock header pipe is smaller than the port, those in between pipes have horrible internal obstacles to the ex flow, but yes i think you can gain a much improved midrange by giving this type of mod to the stock pipe, however the std manifold is a mass produced item with many descrepencies to the continuios flow of the ex gases
the std type collecters are very basic folded sheet vs formed bend type on the b/w and fully formed type on my ex, all these deficiencies do degrade the extra you can get, but i still think it would be worth it.
Change of plan, where down to my local exhaust fabrication place (its very unusual to buy a ready made car exhaust here, they just make one for you) and instead of modifying my headers we decided to make completely new headers similar to your modified Black widow exhaust, much longer secondaries and slightly bigger pipes and better collectors.

Hopefully I'll get the same results as you. Thanks @temporarykiwi
 

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Discussion Starter #12
hi paul, heres some dimensions for you to work on, 38mm o/d headers @465mm length, 44 o/d secondary pipes @420mm ( these figures are between the release points -i.e 1st point where collectors allow gases to mix to the next point) 50.8mm tailpipe @450mm- where gases enter muffler, which is inside muffler body. i utilised the stock tailpipe as i was only trying to remedy the hole in midrange torque/power, for max power i would use 54mm od pipe
 

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Thanks for the help @temporarykiwi I've built and tested the exhaust and its an incredible upgrade over a decat pipe.

Just continuous and powerful torque everywhere, it feels like there are no dips in the torque curve at all, better idle, huge midrange and amazing top end, the front wheel does not want to stay on the ground at all. It needed fuel adding almost everywhere as it must be flowing much better than stock.

It sounds better too.

We built this one from scratch with exactly the same diameter pipes as you, with all the joints ground and smoothed internally and the lengths of primaries, secondaries etc within 10mm of yours.



 

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Thanks for the help @temporarykiwi I've built and tested the exhaust and its an incredible upgrade over a decat pipe.

Just continuous and powerful torque everywhere, it feels like there are no dips in the torque curve at all, better idle, huge midrange and amazing top end, the front wheel does not want to stay on the ground at all. It needed fuel adding almost everywhere as it must be flowing much better than stock.

It sounds better too.

We built this one from scratch with exactly the same diameter pipes as you, with all the joints ground and smoothed internally and the lengths of primaries, secondaries etc within 10mm of yours.



nice looking setup
 

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Thanks for the help @temporarykiwi I've built and tested the exhaust and its an incredible upgrade over a decat pipe.

Just continuous and powerful torque everywhere, it feels like there are no dips in the torque curve at all, better idle, huge midrange and amazing top end, the front wheel does not want to stay on the ground at all. It needed fuel adding almost everywhere as it must be flowing much better than stock.

It sounds better too.

We built this one from scratch with exactly the same diameter pipes as you, with all the joints ground and smoothed internally and the lengths of primaries, secondaries etc within 10mm of yours.



Jeezus, that was quick!
 

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heres some pics of the modded black widow pipe, which has transformed it into a torque monster, previously the power curve was fairly good at the bottom with the decibel killer in place, seemed abit less with it out, in the midrange though it was decidedly lacking, had a defined stage where the topend power took over and seemed strangled tne nearer to the redline you got., but without the deci killer the midrange was slightly more responsive and the top end power was seemingly better than the stock exhaust.
now with the secondary pipes lengthened to where i have calculated is the correct volume , the bottom end is even better than b4 with the modded deci killer in place, the midrange is really bulging with torque, which leads into a much improved topend over stock.
it bewilders me why black widow dont take advantage of the extra power and torque available with this style of pipe arrangement....

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Perhaps they should employ you as a designer.
 

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With the photos in the first page here, and if Temporarykiwi would provide or sell the dimensions or schematic and “instructions”, could not any good muffler or metal fab shop build these headers? The long secondary pipes absolutely do make a huge difference in the midrange. I was blown away when I first tried them.

A list of materials and lengths needed to order the tubing, where to get the cylinder flanges, etc., order all the material needed, then just drop it all off with the bike at a shop and tell them “please make me this, I’ll pick it up in a week”!

Possible?
 

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Can we move this to a different thread? I really don't want to give Paul Nebbs, Phucker Paul, any more PR here. He's a liar and thief and has ripped off numerous members here for a lot of money. His threads should be deleted / burned (as should he).
 
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