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Would also like to see some pics/measurements of the secondaries on the Hindle header, their site doesn't really have any pics, just the depiction of the exhaust in the installation instructions. Looks like the secondaries might be of decent length, would be nice to see how they compare to the M4 secondaries in length.
 

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I then used the PCV with auto-tune and display to try to take care of the fueling.
Woolich has the Zeotronics with wideband O2 and the ability to auto tune. Don't need a power commander.
 

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Woolich has the Zeotronics with wideband O2 and the ability to auto tune. Don't need a power commander.
Depends how much data you want to be visually accessible while you ride. With the PowerCommander lcd display, I had the throttle position and AFR visible in real-time. If I felt a particular spot that felt twitchy or where the bike didn't seem smooth, I had all the data I needed in front of me rather than having to go back and look at the data logs. I could easily tell what the AFR was at any time on a ride at any give rpm/throttle position. I'm a data junkie, so I liked being able to see all that info in real-time. But you are correct, you don't "need" a power commander.

This was also a double-edged sword and what proved to me that you need a dyno, even to tune a bike with an auto-tune system. Although I really enjoyed the learning process, I could see the trim values changing all the time while I was riding, which was very annoying. It did fine at steady state cruise and full throttle where the throttle isn't changing, but all the areas in between were never consistent due to the throttle always changing. So, I decided to just go with an ECU flash from a tuner that has already put in the time creating the tune. I do miss the tuning myself, but realized I could never create a tune as good as someone who spent the time creating a tune on a dyno.

If you had a dyno, so you could tune in a controlled environment and hold the throttle steady in each cell of the fuel map as well as validate your changes, an auto-system would be a great way to build a custom tune, which is what tuners that create ECU flashes do. Then take it out on the road to validate the changes you made in the "real-world".

To be clear, I'm not bashing on auto-tuning, it's just impossible to create a tune that is consistent across the entire fuel map without a means of applying the throttle consistently in each cell and validating your changes. If this is the only option you have, it will likely be better than no fuel management at all, provided you have a safe AFR to target.
 

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Depends how much data you want to be visually accessible while you ride.
True.
But, it is difficult to watch while you ride. There is a data viewer in Woolich, which is like a chart recorder readout of your ride you can analyze afterward. I think that may be better. I had an A/F meter on my first Bandit. I did not find it very useful. I couldn't really watch when I was getting on it on the street, and did not have a racetrack.

" I'm a data junkie, so I liked being able to see all that info in real-time. "
I think it is better with the data viewer, shown below. Your point my be valid of the real time though, if there is a condition that is definitely off and you want to duplicate, while observing in real time.
44714


"If you had a dyno, so you could tune in a controlled environment and hold the throttle steady in each cell of the fuel map "
True. This is the ideal method to develop fueling tables an auto tune cannot do. Ideally, all the cells should be filled in this way. So far, though, I have been pleased with what the auto tune has been able to accomplish. And, I can recheck as the weather changes. If it warrants, I may even download a summer and winter tune. Like re-jetting carbs for summer and winter (which I never did, BTW).

Another thing to be aware of is that some changes a power commander implements may be negated by closed loop control. If a bike uses wideband a/f readings for closed loop, what the PC puts in gets, the closed loop takes back out. The GSXS does not have, I believe. But I watched a Brock Davidson video
of a Z H2. Around the 23 to 24 minute mark he touches on this. If I understand his explanation correctly, at least. (Watching it again just now, not as sure I do.)
 

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I completely agree, no one should try to fixate on a gauge while riding. I could easily tell with quick glances what was going on, and if I felt something was off, I could find an unoccupied stretch of road to try and duplicate the issue.

For example, I have my FZ-10 ECU flashed by 2 Wheel Dyno Works, and the just off-idle throttle wasn't quite right. As I moved the throttle slowly, I could feel the bike fall on it's face, then take off while only moving the throttle a tiny amount. With the PCV display, I was able to verify what I was feeling be seeing the AFR at that throttle position shoot up to the 15's almost 16 , then shoot back down to the 13's. So I was able to add fuel to only those cells and smooth it out, they had since updated their ECU flash and it took care of that issue. I like being able to associate the feeling with the actual data.

One of my previous bikes was a 2017 VMAX, I used an Innovate Motorsport wide-band kit and it was really useful to me. Although I hated taking the carbs apart multiple times to get everything correct, when I was done, the AFR was very close to 12.8 and 13 everywhere through the RPM range, of course you only have jets, needles and screws to play with, not hundreds of cells to populate.

The FZ-10 was one of the bikes that the PCV would not tune in a certain "closed-loop" area, but with the ECU flashed and the O2 sensor disabled, this removed that limitation.

I had already watched the video of Brock tuning the ZH2, will be nice once someone is able to crack the ECU on that.

Would be nice if their was something like Woolich and PC combined that would be used as a "closed-Loop" system for the entire fuel map/rev range. I like the fact that the PCV makes changes in real-time and gives you the ability to limit how much leaner/richer the values will go, but doesn't compare to Woolich (or any ECU flashing software) as far as accessing all the other systems of the bike. If we had the ability to tune the bikes at the level of Woolich, have the system utilize a wide-band O2 sensor to make real-time changes to the ECU based on that feedback and be able to limit the amount of change, that would be great. The only downside is that it would only be as reliable as the O2 sensor and would require some sort of add-on box.

1. Set it all up on a dyno to get each cell correct.
2. Set the amount of change allowed in each cell.
3. This would allow the system to make changes due to environmental variable within the limit you set (summer/winter).

Basically a PCV with the ability to flash the ECU (fueling and all other systems) instead of being a device in the middle.
 
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Would be nice if their was something like Woolich and PC
YES!

One other point to be made. Re-reading Kevin Cameron's book "Sportbike Performance Handbook" (so obviously I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT - sarcasm done) reminds me of one thing a dyno is invaluable for. Checking the results of changes to see what the net effect is. For example, changing cam timing, or completely new cams, or ignition timing, or...... So, a dyno is mandatory to record the benefit (positive or negative) of many different, possible tweaks to a motor.

a PCV with the ability to flash the ECU
In an ideal world. Oh well.
 

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Does anyone have the Dyno results of the Hindle with k&N after flashing the ecu? Seriously considering this set up. I got a quote of $1600 everything installed
 
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