GSXS 1000 Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I noted that the PCV installation requires the exclusion of the O2 sensor.
it's replaced by the O2 eliminator that tells to the ECU that the A/F ratio is ok.
This prevents ECU to provide a leaner A/F ratio, due to the PCV .
It also prevents that ECU goes in recovery mode.

The question is:
Has someone tested or knows what happens installing only the O2 eliminator without PCV?

May be that the throttle problem will disappear?
Can this test damage something (engine, sensor...)?

Please, answer only if you have tested on gsxs1000
because the behaviour of the ECU may change with different ECU models.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Has someone tested or knows what happens installing only the O2 eliminator without PCV?

Please, answer only if you have tested on gsxs1000
because the behaviour of the ECU may change with different ECU models.
ok, no one has tested it on the gsxs.
have you any other experience about it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
204 Posts
a standard bike ECU will use the O2 measurement to adjust the air fuel within a narrow band. This can help the bike to deal with temperature variations as well as to some extent variations with the elevation you are using the bike at. I don't really see why eliminating this feedback loop would help much ? Obviously you would want to do this if you use a piggyback solution such as PC5 to avoid the ECU trying to undo the settings you want to add.

Im not sure what the signal the eliminator gives the ECU when installed but i guess there is a chance it would give a signal that could make the mix slightly richer etc. and of course i have no clue if this would help as if this was the case and i have no reason to believe it would be. This would still just make the same curve slightly richer across the range.

In the same idea it could make it more lean across the range or it could do nothing.

what i cant see it doing is change the curve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
305 Posts
The OP's question is important and not easy to answer.
I would think non-expert ("normal" bike owner) cannot answer this.
It would need disassembling the ECU (bin) to verify the logic for "closed loop" operation.
I have read that some (Bike)ECU have logic to detect that the O2-sensor is "tampered" with and revert to "limp mode"/restricted map. Most likely BMW :)
I *believe* this probably is not the case for the GSXS.
If the ECU read 14.7AFR from the PC O2-eliminator it will probably do nothing in "closed loop" operation(where the logic in the ECU executes).
*If* there are some logic in other running conditions that takes the AFR as input, then this "idiot sensor bypass device" is a bad solution.
But as Mythic posts above if the OEM O2-sensor is not a quick reacting Wideband sensor then the input is not used for calculating fueling (although I do not think *any* modern engine, even for bikes, uses a "pure" narrow band sensor these days).
Narrow band sensors are also only fairly accurate from a tad over stoich (14.7) to the lean side.
On the rich side it is way off.

It is a matter of mapping the whole area, but only for the TPS/rpm map, using PC.
When we know that this map is different depending on which gear is used and that there are maps also for IAP in the ECU, the use of PC is sort of a good compromise.

Personally these days I think a good remap on the OEM ECU done by a skilled tuner will give just as much (or even more) that using a PC/Bazzazz device.
But this takes more time and needs access to ECU.
This is why PC/Bazzazz and similar are good products to accomplish whatever desired for your bike to a much lower cost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
The main problem that I want to solve is the intermittent throttle at 2500/3000 rpm. it's in the range of closed loop control of the ECU.
We know that in that range the ECU has to provide an A/F ratio for maximum CAT performance.The setting for smoother performance may be a richer A/F.

The O2 sensor provide a signal oscillating between 100mV (lean) and 900mV (rich).
Disconnecting the sensor we have 0mV and the ECU reports a failure.
I suppose that the O2 eliminator is simply a couple of resistors that give the ECU
a signal near 500mV (the mean between 100 and 900).

The idea may be to tell the ECU "hey, A/F is lean" giving it a lower value than the signal provided directly from the O2 sensor (for example 300mV instead of 400) partitioning it, so the ECU enrich the A/F ratio.

Has anyone tested something similar?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
328 Posts
only the o2 eli. will not bring what u want
new ecu flash is the way , even better than pc5/bazzaz/rapidbike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I agree, ECU remap is the best way, I have smooth throttle throughout the rev range
I know you are right.
May you tell me who did the job and how much it costs?

If the idea of partitioning the signal from O2 sensor with two resistors is right
we solve the problem with few cents.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
122 Posts
I manufactured a throtle friction device for mine .Whilst it doesn't keep the throttle open it does offer resistance to movement /turning and effectively damps the throttle response by isolating it somewhat from rapid transactions such as occur when riding over bumpy ground. This has made the bike far more managable
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
305 Posts
gsxs1000owner said:
Has anyone tested something similar?
This is the question.
Yes, that is your question :)
And the answer is that most likely someone have tested this, but not on a GSXS1000.
What I can say is that when this logic is disabled, either by a "dummy-resistor" (so called O2-eliminator) or by hacking into the ECU (code segment), the effect is that the AFR most likely will be fairly rich.
If this gives a smoother throttle response, you have to try on *your* bike.
On my ex-BKing it did remove the "surge" sometimes felt in "closed-loop" mode, but it did run rich in this area using just the IAP-map tables.
I used quite a lot of time to adjust this area and got it perfect (for me).
Nice throttle response and good mileage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
387 Posts
I know you are right.
May you tell me who did the job and how much it costs?

If the idea of partitioning the signal from O2 sensor with two resistors is right
we solve the problem with few cents.
Mine was done by Hilltop motorcycles, Racefit exhaust and Pipercross air filter fitted and dyno'd as well as ECU remap, ECU remap is usually around £300
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
328 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
974 Posts
Digging up an old thread here but i found it while googling around on o2 eliminators/optimisers and i thought i would post my thoughts what i have experienced and recently discovered.

In short for those learning like myself the o2 sensor is on bikes for emissions reasons only not for performance and when the bike is up to temperature and when riding at constant throttle between a certain rev range (especially between 2500-3000k rpm)then the ECU uses the o2 sensor to lean the bike out for emissions for the cat to be most effective and if you want to learn more you can read here on the dynojet site for some more info on this for what i am talking about and to save me going into detail.

http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/211/install/optimizer/eng76423007.01.pdf

Anyway after installing the power commander and o2 eliminator i found after the first ride with the stock map that the constant throttle was smooth but acceleration had surges and flat spots, i had 3 maps that were all different (Why are they different)cause all bikes are set different and as we have proven here the TPS adjustments have all been different therefore no map will suit two different bikes,i tried Mr boosts map out (Cheers for that) and it worked really well and smooth and it would probably be fine but my concern is still that one part of his map could lean his bike where required but may lean mine out too much where its not required and over a long distance could be doing more harm than good.
So i ran a zero map(Power commander bypassed) with the o2 optimizer still installed and the bike ran great with no chugging at all during constant speeds and i thought that maybe the bike was actually ok before so i removed the optimizer and surely enough it chugs along again with it removed so straight back in it went.

I may look at getting a dyno done soon only as i am going to be interested in what the dyno operator shows the A/F ratio sits at constant speed with the o2 eliminator at different cruise speeds say 100km/h and 60km/h (Our main speed limits)to see if the A/F ratio is better and safe to run alone without the power commander in the long term, i emailed dynojet and they replied very quickly saying it was fine to run just the eliminator without the power commander.

This will not fully cure the on/off throttle problem though as that is caused by a fuel cut in de-acceleration but i find the throttle tamer does a good enough job for that and therefore no piggy back devices like a power commander would be needed to get a very acceptable running bike costing a lot less unless your looking for a small increase in performance at a high cost.
It makes me wonder how many people run the stock map with a power commander on all bikes and are thinking that the maps working well but really in some cases its just the o2 optimizer preventing the ecu from going into closed lop mode.

Also i think the o2 sensor should be removed when a pcv and/or an eliminator is used as the o2 heater will no longer operate in the sensor which will may damage it in the long term, I'm not 100% sure on this but for the sake of a $2 bolt from the bolt shop as a plug the sensor can be removed, and note the bolt needs to ba a 12mm bolt but not a standard 1.75mm pitch but a 1.25mm pitch so your hardware shop may not stock it or plugs can be brought on ebay.

So a throttle tamer and an o2 eliminator will have your bike running so much smoother at a very small cost.if you do not want to fork out for a fuel controller or an ecu remap.

Please let me know if any of this info may be incorrect.\
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
If you have the ECU flashed you can shut off the emission system that cuts off 100% of the fuel when you turn off the throttle. That system is what makes the throttle so abrupt.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
724 Posts
Digging up an old thread here but i found it while googling around on o2 eliminators/optimisers and i thought i would post my thoughts what i have experienced and recently discovered.

In short for those learning like myself the o2 sensor is on bikes for emissions reasons only not for performance and when the bike is up to temperature and when riding at constant throttle between a certain rev range (especially between 2500-3000k rpm)then the ECU uses the o2 sensor to lean the bike out for emissions for the cat to be most effective and if you want to learn more you can read here on the dynojet site for some more info on this for what i am talking about and to save me going into detail.

http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/211/install/optimizer/eng76423007.01.pdf

Anyway after installing the power commander and o2 eliminator i found after the first ride with the stock map that the constant throttle was smooth but acceleration had surges and flat spots, i had 3 maps that were all different (Why are they different)cause all bikes are set different and as we have proven here the TPS adjustments have all been different therefore no map will suit two different bikes,i tried Mr boosts map out (Cheers for that) and it worked really well and smooth and it would probably be fine but my concern is still that one part of his map could lean his bike where required but may lean mine out too much where its not required and over a long distance could be doing more harm than good.
So i ran a zero map(Power commander bypassed) with the o2 optimizer still installed and the bike ran great with no chugging at all during constant speeds and i thought that maybe the bike was actually ok before so i removed the optimizer and surely enough it chugs along again with it removed so straight back in it went.

I may look at getting a dyno done soon only as i am going to be interested in what the dyno operator shows the A/F ratio sits at constant speed with the o2 eliminator at different cruise speeds say 100km/h and 60km/h (Our main speed limits)to see if the A/F ratio is better and safe to run alone without the power commander in the long term, i emailed dynojet and they replied very quickly saying it was fine to run just the eliminator without the power commander.

This will not fully cure the on/off throttle problem though as that is caused by a fuel cut in de-acceleration but i find the throttle tamer does a good enough job for that and therefore no piggy back devices like a power commander would be needed to get a very acceptable running bike costing a lot less unless your looking for a small increase in performance at a high cost.
It makes me wonder how many people run the stock map with a power commander on all bikes and are thinking that the maps working well but really in some cases its just the o2 optimizer preventing the ecu from going into closed lop mode.

Also i think the o2 sensor should be removed when a pcv and/or an eliminator is used as the o2 heater will no longer operate in the sensor which will may damage it in the long term, I'm not 100% sure on this but for the sake of a $2 bolt from the bolt shop as a plug the sensor can be removed, and note the bolt needs to ba a 12mm bolt but not a standard 1.75mm pitch but a 1.25mm pitch so your hardware shop may not stock it or plugs can be brought on ebay.

So a throttle tamer and an o2 eliminator will have your bike running so much smoother at a very small cost.if you do not want to fork out for a fuel controller or an ecu remap.

Please let me know if any of this info may be incorrect.\
I was just thinking about this as I was removing my PCv....:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
974 Posts
Vnuh has just tried this out also and said it has smoothed out the constant throttle with just the 02 eliminator and throttle tamer, I have since gone back to the 02 sensor installed as I found it made the bike a lot more responsive which the bike didn't need and mine runs fine anyway with just a slight rough running at a low speed that I rarely do and it's easily manageable by slowly increasing and decreasing speed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
974 Posts
Vnuh has just tried this out also and said it has smoothed out the constant throttle with just the 02 eliminator and throttle tamer, I have since gone back to the 02 sensor installed as I found it made the bike a lot more responsive which the bike didn't need and mine runs fine anyway with just a slight rough running at a low speed that I rarely do and it's easily manageable by slowly increasing and decreasing speed


Just an update on these comments as the post has just been bumped up , I found the more response was caused by running 98 fuel and not the 02 eliminator and have since gone back to 95 and the bike is less responsive and way smoother to ride
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top