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Discussion Starter #1
Hello!
So Im about to through on my arrow headers, attached to my yoshi alpha can and intend to rune it off power commander v with auto tune. I do intend to have it dyno tuned but was wondering if anyone was willing to share a copy (or even a picture!) of their fuel map.....especially if you live in Florida. I dont so much intend to use the actual map but am very curious to compare to the stock map and my post dyno map.

This might also be a good place for people to share their maps if they want....I know the Yoshi/Arrow setup seems to be popular. I'm surprised I haven't seen one up yet for this combo.
 

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I dont have my auto tune running yet and am currently fully stock atm. However, for a set of base values I was intending to set my target afr to what power commander used when they dyno'd our bikes. You can find their target afr on their report of their pc install on our bike with dyno tune. I'm currently running their base map
 

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This is the missing link for our auto tune, is'nt it? as in, WTF is ideal?

I like grisoguys idea, and Im not sure what else we can use as a baseline?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I was planning on doing the same as griso also. I am actually most interested to see what numbers other people auto tune out to though


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This is the missing link for our auto tune, is'nt it? as in, WTF is ideal?

I like grisoguys idea, and Im not sure what else we can use as a baseline?
Although every engine is different, it's safe to say that our engines will run best around the same afr or very similar to each other. Without a dyno to verify, there's no real way of knowing exactly what afr is best. Most engines make decent power somewhere in the mid to low 13's and good fuel economy in the high 13's to 14 etc. Throttle response is Also something to take into consideration, engine temps etc..
I think power commanders numbers are safe to start with
 

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You're asking the wrong question. If you are running an autotune, you want someone's target AFR table, not their map. The autotune builds your map based on your target AFR's. Myself and Nicka are working on some AFR tables at the moment. His is a very good place to start, but I'm tinkering with some other changes at the moment.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
actually, I know exactly what I am asking......I am NOT asking for their AFR table.......I literally want to know the fuel table that is developed by auto tune. Most people who choose to auto tune start with the PCV base map and develop from there....That is what I am trying to analyze. Truthfully, I would most interested in seeing the MAPs from people with similar mods from my area.....I want to see how different the maps are

As an experiment, I intend to purchase a second wide band 02 sensor. On a given day I am going to go for a ride with what ever base map im running. I will then swap out for the new sensor, restart with the same base map, and replicate the ride.....I want to know how consistent the autotune maps are.

I dont mind the AFR tables though. I would love to see what you and Nicka come up with.......thats an answer to a different question for me.

The ability to set different AFR for different RPM is why i bought the PCV in the first place versus the Rapidbike. Rapid bike forces you to buy an additional $325 module in order for you to set different target AFR within one map. Otherwise, its built in autotune feature forces you to use one AFR across the whole range.
 

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To add to this conversation, and I may be wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that the pc-v with auto tune module is the only option that gives you a real "closed loop" set up. Unless I misunderstand how the woolich and zeitronic auto tune modules function, I'm under the impression they don't actually create a live map that will adjust values for you.

My understanding of the other auto tune modules I've seen all require you to download the data and then submit changes to your map via a laptop or similar.
I've used pc-v with auto tune in the past and it will create its own map while you ride, and submit the changes automatically to the power commander for you. It is always on and will compensate for temperature and any mods you add along the way

In my experience the best option would be to have the ecu flashed to have o2 sensor, and PAIR valve turned off, open secondary throttle plates earlier and adjust timing all within the ecu, then make necessary changes in fueling to compensate and make it run proper. THEN you add the pc-v with auto tune to create your live map.
When you flash the ecu, the o2 sensor is turned off. So there's no live adjustments being made. The factory sensor is narrow band anyways so it wouldn't be accurate for making precise measurements like the wideband sensors are
 

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I am doing some testing over the next couple of days as I have some time off and some awesome weather so I'll upload my latest afr and fuel table and my consensus on the auto tune as I'm planning on loading a zero map switchable with the latest auto tune map to compare the difference
 

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actually, I know exactly what I am asking......I am NOT asking for their AFR table.......I literally want to know the fuel table that is developed by auto tune. Most people who choose to auto tune start with the PCV base map and develop from there....That is what I am trying to analyze. Truthfully, I would most interested in seeing the MAPs from people with similar mods from my area.....I want to see how different the maps are

As an experiment, I intend to purchase a second wide band 02 sensor. On a given day I am going to go for a ride with what ever base map im running. I will then swap out for the new sensor, restart with the same base map, and replicate the ride.....I want to know how consistent the autotune maps are.

I dont mind the AFR tables though. I would love to see what you and Nicka come up with.......thats an answer to a different question for me.

The ability to set different AFR for different RPM is why i bought the PCV in the first place versus the Rapidbike. Rapid bike forces you to buy an additional $325 module in order for you to set different target AFR within one map. Otherwise, its built in autotune feature forces you to use one AFR across the whole range.
No problem. I have a full M4 system, but I suspect the flow characteristics of any of the aftermarket systems will be fairly similar. I'm still playing a little this week, but will send you a copy of my map and AFR table next weekend. By then, I think it'll be close. I have a minor stumble I'm trying to get rid of, which I think I've caused by leaning the mixture too low in the RPM range (whilst targeting fuel economy in the cruise range).

FYI, PowerCommander don't have a suggested/reference AFR table for this bike.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
To add to this conversation, and I may be wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that the pc-v with auto tune module is the only option that gives you a real "closed loop" set up. Unless I misunderstand how the woolich and zeitronic auto tune modules function, I'm under the impression they don't actually create a live map that will adjust values for you.

My understanding of the other auto tune modules I've seen all require you to download the data and then submit changes to your map via a laptop or similar.
I've used pc-v with auto tune in the past and it will create its own map while you ride, and submit the changes automatically to the power commander for you. It is always on and will compensate for temperature and any mods you add along the way

In my experience the best option would be to have the ecu flashed to have o2 sensor, and PAIR valve turned off, open secondary throttle plates earlier and adjust timing all within the ecu, then make necessary changes in fueling to compensate and make it run proper. THEN you add the pc-v with auto tune to create your live map.
When you flash the ecu, the o2 sensor is turned off. So there's no live adjustments being made. The factory sensor is narrow band anyways so it wouldn't be accurate for making precise measurements like the wideband sensors are
Rapidbike will adjust fuel on the fly just like the PCV. There is a caveat, however. Rapidbike comes with an autotuner built into the main unit. The built in version uses the bikes OEM narrow band 02 sensor. The problem is that when using narrow band, Rapidbike can only adjust fuel on the fly according to one single AFR for the entire fuel map...very limiting in my opinion.
Rapidbike also has a wide band 02 module for auto tuning for another $325ish.....It works very similar to PCV. It adjust on the fly. samples at 50/min. The module will marry itself to your rapid bike after connected and can never be used with a different rapidbike fuel controller.

both PCV and rapidbike seem like awesome devices. Rapidbike was a little nicer looking device. From a cost perspective, rapidbike cost $300-$400 more and not many people tune/dyno it in the USA. PCV on the other hand is virtually the gold standard in the USA.

Almost none of the supposed benefits of Rapidbike over PCV are available on our model bike.

I was really put off by the USA distributor for rapidbike (here in orlando)....when I started asking questions that happened to zero in on the devices limitations, he became defensive, started pointing out return policy. Even before that, he really spoke down to me, very arrogant. when I asked about target AFR tables his response was "you're being to sensitive."......I walked into the store willing to buy one but the thought of having to deal with that guy on any regular basis negated that.
 

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No problem. I have a full M4 system, but I suspect the flow characteristics of any of the aftermarket systems will be fairly similar. I'm still playing a little this week, but will send you a copy of my map and AFR table next weekend. By then, I think it'll be close. I have a minor stumble I'm trying to get rid of, which I think I've caused by leaning the mixture too low in the RPM range (whilst targeting fuel economy in the cruise range).

FYI, PowerCommander don't have a suggested/reference AFR table for this bike.
I have just sent you a PM Rod actually stating that i think i have the same problem as you as i didn't see this post before hand.

I am not sure if our Australian bikes are the same fueling table in the ECU as other countries as my bike actually runs very rich in the 4500-6000 rpm range and the auto tuner is leaning it out considerably creating a weak spot even at an AFR of 13:4.1 and in hardly any other part of the fuel map does it add fuel.
This must be a point where Suzuki run a lot richer to keep the power level up but it is in the cruise range and where the closed loop would be good for fuel economy.
I have been communicating with jens from booster plug today and IMO my bike would have little benefit with a booster plug as they do not operate in the closed loop mode which is the only point my bike would require it as it runs leaner and slightly surges at constant throttle at low speeds.
Also if i remember watching a video of Dale Walker tuning his GSXS even his idle was at 17:1.1 AFR where mine sits at 12 to 13 while hot or cold so it needs no extra fuel their.
I have the catalytic converter removed from my system only so its not exactly stock and this has let it breath considerably better and let it run way cooler while just being a touch louder.
I originally brought the power commander and auto tune in the fear it was running lean causing the motor to run hot and decrease its life but i think just removing the cat and reducing the heat has helped out immensely.
I have some more testing to do tomorrow riding some twisties all day in 30 degrees sunshine along the coast :) and i'll post back my results as i plan to run the auto tune one way and turn the whole system off on the return trip for comparison
 

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I have just sent you a PM Rod actually stating that i think i have the same problem as you as i didn't see this post before hand.

I am not sure if our Australian bikes are the same fueling table in the ECU as other countries as my bike actually runs very rich in the 4500-6000 rpm range and the auto tuner is leaning it out considerably creating a weak spot even at an AFR of 13:4.1 and in hardly any other part of the fuel map does it add fuel.
This must be a point where Suzuki run a lot richer to keep the power level up but it is in the cruise range and where the closed loop would be good for fuel economy.
I have been communicating with jens from booster plug today and IMO my bike would have little benefit with a booster plug as they do not operate in the closed loop mode which is the only point my bike would require it as it runs leaner and slightly surges at constant throttle at low speeds.
Also if i remember watching a video of Dale Walker tuning his GSXS even his idle was at 17:1.1 AFR where mine sits at 12 to 13 while hot or cold so it needs no extra fuel their.
I have the catalytic converter removed from my system only so its not exactly stock and this has let it breath considerably better and let it run way cooler while just being a touch louder.
I originally brought the power commander and auto tune in the fear it was running lean causing the motor to run hot and decrease its life but i think just removing the cat and reducing the heat has helped out immensely.
I have some more testing to do tomorrow riding some twisties all day in 30 degrees sunshine along the coast :) and i'll post back my results as i plan to run the auto tune one way and turn the whole system off on the return trip for comparison
I agree that the bike is way rich through the middle. I've dropped mine in the cruise range, and am getting about 30Km per tank more range, and don't feel any loss of power. The only remaining issue I have is a minor stumble from 2000-3000 RPM, from zero throttle. I'm gradually adding fuel blocks in the map in this range, to get rid of it. I've almost got it right, and will post full details once I have. I ride and tune twice a day at the moment (on the way to work, and on the way home), so by the end of the week I should have it almost nailed.
 

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Can't wait to see your results! Thanks so much for sharing the work you've put in. Once I get my pcV installed I'll try out your tables and see if I can make any adjustments and post my findings.
 

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After a bit of testing the last couple of days i was going to post up my fuel map and table but i am not happy with it and am a bit puzzled and i will be away all next week so if anyone wants to see it PM me your email and i will send it through before Friday.

I rode a 400km almost exact round trip today where the first 100 km was highway then the next 100 were tight twisties (Great Oceon Road) using the auto tuner with a fresh map, i recorded the fuel results, filled up and headed home the same route with the auto tuner and power commander turned off.

As i expected the bike leaned out between 4500 and 6000 rpm where i spent almost the whole day riding with an AFR between 13.1 and 13.4 with fuel usage very close to 6 litres per 100km, then with the ride home running with no power commander i got very close to 5 litres per 100km and i believe the bike actually ran better.

There was an increase in outside temperature that i am not sure could be a factor as it was 18 degrees when i left and 33 degrees Celsius when i got home, also on my return trip i passed a camera car which slowed me down slightly for a bit(Not much) and i am hoping that car was not there earlier cause if it was then i may be walking for a while :(
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Nika, just curious if you dont mind me asking..what did you mean by a "fresh map" and what did you mean by it ran better?


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After a bit of testing the last couple of days i was going to post up my fuel map and table but i am not happy with it and am a bit puzzled and i will be away all next week so if anyone wants to see it PM me your email and i will send it through before Friday.

I rode a 400km almost exact round trip today where the first 100 km was highway then the next 100 were tight twisties (Great Oceon Road) using the auto tuner with a fresh map, i recorded the fuel results, filled up and headed home the same route with the auto tuner and power commander turned off.

As i expected the bike leaned out between 4500 and 6000 rpm where i spent almost the whole day riding with an AFR between 13.1 and 13.4 with fuel usage very close to 6 litres per 100km, then with the ride home running with no power commander i got very close to 5 litres per 100km and i believe the bike actually ran better.

There was an increase in outside temperature that i am not sure could be a factor as it was 18 degrees when i left and 33 degrees Celsius when i got home, also on my return trip i passed a camera car which slowed me down slightly for a bit(Not much) and i am hoping that car was not there earlier cause if it was then i may be walking for a while :(
How are you running with no power commander? Do you just install a zero map?
 

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Nika, just curious if you dont mind me asking..what did you mean by a "fresh map" and what did you mean by it ran better?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A fuel map with all zeros so it had to tune from the start but it really doesn't take long for it to learn, it had more pickup around the mid range where it was leaning off and also it had less engine braking from it being leaner especially riding the twisties and being on and off the throttle slightly , it felt like it was running fine while on the auto tune but then it just felt better when I was off it with more fuel, I'll do some more testing when I'm back and will post my results again, its still enjoyable testing and learning
 

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How are you running with no power commander? Do you just install a zero map?


I have a switch on the handle bars and as I started with a zero map the auto tune figures are in the trim map so when I flick the switch it turns off the auto tune and reverts back to the 0 fuel map only but I still had the negative figures in the 0 percent throttle to eliminate the decel popping both ways
 

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Good work everyone:)

Does anyone know if the GSX is restricted in any way in 4th gear? i use 4th for power runs.

I have been messing around today on my dyno (homemade) and something strange is going on....

I chopped off the cat and silencer and put a PCV and autotune on and disconnected the SET valve. I have fitted a straight through carbon can.

So the result is more power everywhere except the top end. The SET valve was worth 3hp alone. But with more power everywhere you would expect more top end as well.

From tickover to around 10,000 rpm i am getting about 8hp more, but at full revs am i still getting about the same hp... Nice curve though. (See below)

The only real useful other conclusion i came to was it prefers (well mine at least) an A/F ratio of 12.9. Too much or too little either way loses power and torque.

Ignore the the value of the readings, (range of 120hp) i need to recalibrate my dyno...again!
 

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