What have people been doing with there brakes?? Looking to change pads in the front, hopefully can get a bit more initial bite. They seem quite spongy as they are and you really have to squeeze them to pull up in a hurry. Recommend brake pads or braided lines ??
Upgrading Brakes ??
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shanRRgard
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Which model master cylinder did you go for Paul? Would you be able to throw some pictures of it up?
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Im not Paul, but I have to mention this.
I am running my gsxr brembo calipers with a master cylinder that was from Ducatis 1098sp. It is an 18/19 Brembo, semi radial. This size matches up rather well to our 32mm pistons.
Heres a link to it: Brembo OE Front Brake Master Cylinder PR18/19 titanium without reservoir w/lever.61 - OPPRACING Products
Not that you should order one, but it offers an ebay bike search to see if you can find a nice, used one.
I paid 175.00 for a complete unit. That includes lever, reservoir and light switch. With this master, and the vesrah pads, the braking performance is stunning.
Its dumb to say this, but if you search on ebay, be careful. The ducatis use a hydraulic clutch. Meaning, half of the master cylinders you see are for the clutch side and will be useless for this application.
If you find one, by all means go for it.
I am running my gsxr brembo calipers with a master cylinder that was from Ducatis 1098sp. It is an 18/19 Brembo, semi radial. This size matches up rather well to our 32mm pistons.
Heres a link to it: Brembo OE Front Brake Master Cylinder PR18/19 titanium without reservoir w/lever.61 - OPPRACING Products
Not that you should order one, but it offers an ebay bike search to see if you can find a nice, used one.
I paid 175.00 for a complete unit. That includes lever, reservoir and light switch. With this master, and the vesrah pads, the braking performance is stunning.
Its dumb to say this, but if you search on ebay, be careful. The ducatis use a hydraulic clutch. Meaning, half of the master cylinders you see are for the clutch side and will be useless for this application.
If you find one, by all means go for it.
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You'll have to pretend its a green Suzuki, but here they are. I also have 330mm Brembo front rotors, but these are/were no big deal.
I borrowed the calipers from a 2012 gsxr 1000. No real reason, other than looks. They were about 1.5-2lbs lighter than the stock calipers, so that was nice.
With stock pads, they were not much. Possibly an upgrade, but maybe not. With Vesrah pads, and that ducati master cylinder, wow....If I get a new bike, this brake set will be installed on it, assuming it all fits. Its that good.
I got the Brembo rotors for 175.00 so I HAD to have them, but they seriously don't do anything different than the stock 300mm rotors did using the same caliper, pad, and master cylinder.
Even though it is 30mm larger than stock, it is a nothing compared to the pad and master cylinder change. They look cool, and I'm sure they are incredible, but still....Id cry if I had paid full price for them.
The feel is incredible. Its not about huge amounts of power. It is very powerful, but theres a feel I just cant describe. Lets call it an ability to tell if you have 1% or 2% brakes applied. You truly feel it all the way through the range, and have unlimited control.
I borrowed the calipers from a 2012 gsxr 1000. No real reason, other than looks. They were about 1.5-2lbs lighter than the stock calipers, so that was nice.
With stock pads, they were not much. Possibly an upgrade, but maybe not. With Vesrah pads, and that ducati master cylinder, wow....If I get a new bike, this brake set will be installed on it, assuming it all fits. Its that good.
I got the Brembo rotors for 175.00 so I HAD to have them, but they seriously don't do anything different than the stock 300mm rotors did using the same caliper, pad, and master cylinder.
Even though it is 30mm larger than stock, it is a nothing compared to the pad and master cylinder change. They look cool, and I'm sure they are incredible, but still....Id cry if I had paid full price for them.
The feel is incredible. Its not about huge amounts of power. It is very powerful, but theres a feel I just cant describe. Lets call it an ability to tell if you have 1% or 2% brakes applied. You truly feel it all the way through the range, and have unlimited control.
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With regards to the Ducati/brembo master cylinder. Ive had a couple of pm's asking why, and "whats different, its dimensions are so similar...."
What it offers is feel. After all, if we wanted the ultimate in power, we could jam a hammer handle in the spinning wheel...that would lock the brakes, right? That would be all power, no feel.
Its hard to describe, but the feel is not unlike a screwdriver. You know how a super high quality snap on feels vs something from Harbour freight.
Thats how this upgraded master feels. In this system, it is worth about as much as a good set of pads. If you find a deal on one, by all means go for it. By "deal" I mean under 200.00.
What it offers is feel. After all, if we wanted the ultimate in power, we could jam a hammer handle in the spinning wheel...that would lock the brakes, right? That would be all power, no feel.
Its hard to describe, but the feel is not unlike a screwdriver. You know how a super high quality snap on feels vs something from Harbour freight.
Thats how this upgraded master feels. In this system, it is worth about as much as a good set of pads. If you find a deal on one, by all means go for it. By "deal" I mean under 200.00.
No doubts that "feel' is the key word here. All motorcycle brake systems manufactured since the last 25 years are powerful enough to lock the front wheel so obviously its not about power but rather about feel
That say "feel" is very subjective and, as it is also for suspension and tires, we all have different opinion about it and what "feel" good to one rider do not mean that it would be the same to another one.
Some manufacturers, Brembo come to mind, have established a reputation to be the "best". I disagree, while it's true that Brembo have some of the best products around, they also offer some much lower quality calipers that are certainly no better than a Tokico or Nissin calipers
Bottom line, whatever work for you and feel right to you, is the best
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Luc, I agree. I dont think our calipers are anything special, or extremely high quality, but they are not bad, and certainly something you can work with.
The stock pad has a low friction rating. It ends up lacking feel since a person has to pull so hard to get good power.
Maybe thats a better way to describe feel. Its as if a person uses less hand strength for the same braking result. When you dont need to pull so hard, its easier to be aware of what else is happening.
I dont blame Suzuki for the pad choice. I believe the original pad will last a lot longer than the higher friction rated aftermarket pads. I will be lucky to see 8000 miles with the Vesrah pads.
The stock pad has a low friction rating. It ends up lacking feel since a person has to pull so hard to get good power.
Maybe thats a better way to describe feel. Its as if a person uses less hand strength for the same braking result. When you dont need to pull so hard, its easier to be aware of what else is happening.
I dont blame Suzuki for the pad choice. I believe the original pad will last a lot longer than the higher friction rated aftermarket pads. I will be lucky to see 8000 miles with the Vesrah pads.
I used an OEM Brembo 18 x 19 for a few years and agree it works well (though, being an OEM piece, it is built to a price point). However, remember this unit was (first?) used with Brembo M4 calipers with 4 x 34mm pistons (on 1098/1198), where it worked very well. By using said master with 4 x 32mm pistons (as on GSX-S calipers), you will be sacrificing feel and power (less mechanical advantage). I ran this MC with Nissin calipers from an F4i (very robust caliper with 34/32mm pistons) and kept it when I switched to Nissin monoblocs from 2009 Daytona 675 (32/32mm pistons) and it did the job. I have since changed to a Galespeed forged MC (17.5 piston with 18mm fulcrum) this set-up is MUCH nicer. Choose your MC according to how you like your brakes to feel; if you like a firm lever (which, contrary to popular belief, actually generates LESS power) go towards a larger piston and/or longer fulcrum measurement. If, however, you like a softer lever (more travel but more power), then go towards a smaller piston and/or shorter fulcrum measurement. Again, do NOT get mislead into thinking a stiffer lever (like that provided by a 19x20 MC, for example) will generate more power for the opposite is true (it has less mechanical advantage). For a 32/32mm caliper, my personal choice would be for a Brembo 19x16 (only in billet; expensive but nice) or something 17 (actual 17.5mm) with 18mm fulcrum (such as the Nissin unit used on select GSX-Rs and CBR-RRs - that being said, I am not sure what comes stock on GSX-S, sorry, so perhaps I am being redundant). You can also ante up and get a Brembo RCS17 (allows you to adjust the fulcrum length from 18 to 20mm) or try a Galespeed (reasonably priced for a top-notch item). FWIW, I have tried numerous caliper and MC combinations over the years (with my VTR1000 projet; thanks to OCMD - Obsessive Compulsive Modding Disorder) and find the best performance to be with a set-up which generates a lot of mechanical advantage. While requiring slightly more lever travel, it gives more power and, most importantly, better modulation and feedback.
Hope this doesn't come across as patronizing for it is not my intention.
Hope this doesn't come across as patronizing for it is not my intention.
for an MC for any given pressure at the calipers pistons:
smaller bore = more travel + softer lever
Bigger bore = less travel + harder lever
I like mine (no jokes here please) soft with a lot of travel, It is easier to modulate
Back in the days when the Z1 had an option of a second disc brake, the MC that came in the kit had a bigger bore to account for extra volume due to the second calipers.
I went back to the smaller, single caliper MC design. Was like having power brake
smaller bore = more travel + softer lever
Bigger bore = less travel + harder lever
I like mine (no jokes here please) soft with a lot of travel, It is easier to modulate
Back in the days when the Z1 had an option of a second disc brake, the MC that came in the kit had a bigger bore to account for extra volume due to the second calipers.
I went back to the smaller, single caliper MC design. Was like having power brake
bang on, your experience is on par with mine. For this reason, I fail to see why anyone would ever want a 19x20 master (unless maybe you were running 38mm caliper pistons....) but such is life in a free society, to each his own.... all this aside, the cheapest and most effective way to improve brakes is generally braided lines (if they don't come stock) and good quality pads...
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I forgot to report back.. I ended up getting the set of EBC HH brake pads for the front. The difference was immediately noticeable, much better initial bite and a stronger feel than originals.
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Mikstr, I did not want to quote everything you said, but thank you for posting real, useful info. There is very little information available when it comes to master cylinder ratios. I agree, I dont thing the 18x19 is perfect, but its a vast improvement, and was 175.00.
Many people quote the charts that show up when we google the subject, but very few have actually tried any of the combinations.
I can only imagine what feel is like with the set-up you have in the picture.
As far as hand strength goes, isn't that the point of what were trying to do? I feel like we are trying to find a braking combination that factors out hand strength. If his hands get strong enough, we wont need calipers. He can reach down and grab the spinning disc with his fingers.
If your going in this deep, Jaked, I think I would look at some different pads as opposed to building around the ebc's.
One other thing to factor in (HOW???), with the oem brembo 18x19 thats borrowed form a Ducati is the fact that its not truly a radial master cylinder.
Instead of the piston running 90 degrees from the bar (radial), or parallel to the bar (conventional), the ducati model has the piston at a 45 degree angle.
I believe this is why we are able to use it in this application and have it work so well.
You guys will have to stop over if I ever need to remove my front wheel.
My bike came with 300mm rotors. It now has 330mm rotors. That leaves very little room to get the calipers in place. Im still not sure how they went into place. If the rotor was 330.00000001 mm, I dont think the caliper would have fit.
Many people quote the charts that show up when we google the subject, but very few have actually tried any of the combinations.
I can only imagine what feel is like with the set-up you have in the picture.
As far as hand strength goes, isn't that the point of what were trying to do? I feel like we are trying to find a braking combination that factors out hand strength. If his hands get strong enough, we wont need calipers. He can reach down and grab the spinning disc with his fingers.
If your going in this deep, Jaked, I think I would look at some different pads as opposed to building around the ebc's.
One other thing to factor in (HOW???), with the oem brembo 18x19 thats borrowed form a Ducati is the fact that its not truly a radial master cylinder.
Instead of the piston running 90 degrees from the bar (radial), or parallel to the bar (conventional), the ducati model has the piston at a 45 degree angle.
I believe this is why we are able to use it in this application and have it work so well.
You guys will have to stop over if I ever need to remove my front wheel.
My bike came with 300mm rotors. It now has 330mm rotors. That leaves very little room to get the calipers in place. Im still not sure how they went into place. If the rotor was 330.00000001 mm, I dont think the caliper would have fit.
IMO the Master Cylinder will give the best results. My bike with the lever as far out as possible has 3/4" to a full 1" of travel before it starts applying fluid to the pistons. My GSXR race bike does the same with my Superstock setup and with brake fade over the course of 8 laps I can no longer use 1-2 fingers, but whole hand because lever comes to close to the grip... 
Suzuki really needs to fix this IMO as it is unacceptable to have that much play before pressure is applied to the pistons.
Suzuki really needs to fix this IMO as it is unacceptable to have that much play before pressure is applied to the pistons.
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So whats the consensus on the preferred size on the master cylinder for feel? Does anyone know what the stock size is?
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Have no idea how Suzuki and Brembo chose the brake set up (lines, sizes, etc). and how the responsibility is shared.
Trying to get an answer from the local dealers on how to improvise them hasn't done anything.
Have replaced the fluid a few times, yet they always work the same. Some times have to pump them a bit to bring them back to normal. At times after parking for a few hours, after riding it applying a lot of brake, it goes flat, and have to pump them a few times, then they work again. They always work with middle finger, but not always with the same consistence pressure.
Many Italians are not very nice (luck of the draw) at getting back with US customers (different customer service mentality).
maybe if enough of us email them with a basic question of how to better improve them, just perhaps we can all get an expert answer from their engineers.
This is the link that i used, it appears to be the correct one. (if it's not please let me know)
Contacts | Brembo - Official Website
Trying to get an answer from the local dealers on how to improvise them hasn't done anything.
Have replaced the fluid a few times, yet they always work the same. Some times have to pump them a bit to bring them back to normal. At times after parking for a few hours, after riding it applying a lot of brake, it goes flat, and have to pump them a few times, then they work again. They always work with middle finger, but not always with the same consistence pressure.
Many Italians are not very nice (luck of the draw) at getting back with US customers (different customer service mentality).
maybe if enough of us email them with a basic question of how to better improve them, just perhaps we can all get an expert answer from their engineers.
This is the link that i used, it appears to be the correct one. (if it's not please let me know)
Contacts | Brembo - Official Website
I must be one of the fortunate ones here. My 2017 OE pads were vague and inconsistent with a fair bit of pressure required to haul up quick. Just got pissed off about it after 1600 miles on the originals and swapped them out for SBS RS pads having read good reviews. Improved bite, consistency, feel and required pressure. All is solved. Lovely.
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A ok!
Have also been fortunate with the pads, they are consistent and even. It's the pressure that changes a bit, but have lived with it for 51+K mikes. Not complaining about it, just if i could solve the pressure issue to be better i will, until then..........................f**** it, just keep on riding!
Interesting how we all differ, yet make the best of it. Am glad you got yours figured out.
Have also been fortunate with the pads, they are consistent and even. It's the pressure that changes a bit, but have lived with it for 51+K mikes. Not complaining about it, just if i could solve the pressure issue to be better i will, until then..........................f**** it, just keep on riding!
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Only had my Gixxus for 200 miles and while the brakes are good once applied I find it disconcerting to have the lever travel so far before it starts to harden up. my other bike is a 27 year old FJ1200 with ABS, blue spots, braided lines and HH pads and bites a whole lot quicker than my Gixxus. Not saying it stops quicker, just that it goes hard quicker when you giver the lever a squeeze. No puerile comments please (Y)
Assuming that the Gixxus has an ABS pump and extended lines, is there much to gain from a system flush and bleed, or do I have to go to braided lines and HH pads?
(Y)Assuming that the Gixxus has an ABS pump and extended lines, is there much to gain from a system flush and bleed, or do I have to go to braided lines and HH pads?
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